An amazing question?

 

Great question…some infights of who is wholier  more integral….more conscious seems to occupy enrgy , intention and attention:)

On the other side:

Everybody has to do spefic work. Even great artists, musicians, scientists seem to ignore co-genial exemplars.

So , an explicit “come together” seems not to be necessary. Already Ralf Waldo Enmerson said something about true friendship.

A silent appreciation and friendly tacit authentic respect between partners is wonderful already. Even the jargon does not bother me any more. If I could drink a cup of coffee with a friendly and polite prostitute or an unenligthened “sinner” I would be happy to share my time.

Life is great!

Albert

 

I”ve thought about this as well. In my experience it has  often been easier connecting with ordinary individuals than with those who call themselves “therapists” or who are spiritual healers who think they know it all. There is just  so much rivalry and competition between these guys it's not funny. I guess we have a long way to go before the so called spiritual leaders begin to hold each other's hands.  Maybe we ordinary folk could kind of make a beginning?

 

This is indeed an interesting question, Mushin.  It's a shame that more “thought leaders” don't get together and become action leaders as well.  I think the folks at the Global Dialogue Institute I referenced in my blog on interfaith dialogue are attempting to do this – to bring religious leaders from multiple traditions together, not only to dialogue but to work together to face world problems.  Arguably, the Integral Spiritual Center is attempting to do this as well.  And there are other organizations.  But often it doesn't seem to be the gurus and pastors and such initiating this – someone else has the idea and attempts to call them together…

As I hope you also will do…. :D

 

…and as a light hearted side note - everyone is free to get together with me, I have just received an online ordination ;P

Reverend Johann E Lee for the Universal Life Church Monastery

PS. And uma I m not one of those therapists who know everything. It is not funny how petty these pros get, I hear you totally. I have shied away from Singapore's new age cicles for so long now just because of this grand ego thing so many of them put on. We are the ordinary divine and well, that is good enough for me! :)

 

Camelot, I work as a therapist myself. But in the last few years I have been trying to work in a way that minimises the difference between “therapist” and “client”. Who was it who said that a good therapist makes himself redundant?!

 

Mushin,
As a unique gift to the world who embodies the skills required to have people be themselves and let go of their attachments, perhaps there is only one man for the job of being the catalyst that the people you speak of need. For after all, we all need each other and we all have gifts in one form or another.
What if your gift is the one thing their hearts call for? “We do all this for love but we wish someone could bring us together in purpose”, he said in their collective imaginings.

I for one will be your servant in the process of gathering should you wish this of me.
Love and potentiality
Martin

 

Dear Martin, yes! yes! YES! My heart leaps when I think of this! Mushin has held my intuition and imagination ever since I discovered him here at zaadz like no other! Martin, and Mushin, I wish to begin a Pod that would extend help, assistance, advice, counsel, and I would ever be so honoured, really really honoured to have you both be there. Would it be possible? Moderators both of you?

 

I guess that to experience oneness, we have to sense that subtle pattern made up of all our lovely individualistic egos on the surface, and the subtle essence we call life, within.  When people do get together at this level, it sometimes seems like a clique, a club, a cult, something that instils fear in others, a fear of exclusion.

This way, being separate, these successful ones are able to keep that space in which those who are not interested in being in the public eye, or follow them, can flow? After all, if they're successful, they're obviously satisfying the need of people around them. There does seem to be a need for separateness in humans as a whole…maybe it is just space, and not really opposition.

Mushin, your blogs are always so thought-provoking, and I love the clarity with which you share your remarkable thoughts. Thank you.

 

Mushin,

Thanks to Meenakshi's blog, I have come here.  Before I read the comments, what came to me in reading your blog was - I am not so certain.  I am not so certain that they don't all support each other, creating a mutual, co-operative effort, as you say,

I continually come across just such efforts, for example, Bill Harris of the Centerpointe Research Institute has put together a 6 week discussion format called Mastering Eckhart Tolle's The Power Of Now to have discussions in the hope of clarifying the concepts and work of Eckhart Tolle.  Due to its overwhelming attention, thanks to Oprah using her resources to bring it worldwide for an unprecendented 10 weeks, there is continuing interest in supporting such a leap in humanities response to living.  To my knowledge, such an undertaking has never before been accomplished on such a scale as this in such a short time period. 

If you are interested in the current discussions you can go to -

http://www.masteringthepowerofnow.com/

The line-up for these discussions include Genpo Roshi (interview already available at the above link) and Ken Wilber, among others.

This is just one example but I've seen others - in The Secret work, whatever you think of it, it brought alot of spiritually inclined thinkers together for a combined effort of bringing to the masses an understanding of the responsibility they have regarding their own lives and how they can improve upon them, if they are not as happy and comfortable as they might wish.  Of course, spirituality when mature, goes way beyond that.

I simply found your blog to be dwelling on divisiveness or a kind of differentiation that I don't really see or believe exists.  I just think that different people say the same things in different ways.  I apparently do believe any differences are slightly overstated in this blog but most likely, this is what you feel or you would not have bothered to write about it.  I do so much respect that this is your opinion and perhaps, some of these others who are commenting share that perspective. 

I am wondering though, if it is overlooking some of the combined efforts that I am aware are taking place, fairly often really, to achieve the “wholesome, holistic, spiritual and sustainable future of life on our planet” as you say you recognize may are motivated towards.

Personally, when I study Lao-tzu, Ernest Holmes, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Wayne Dwyer, Byron Katie, Gregg Braden or Don Juan of the Carlos Casteneda books or as Eckhart Tolle says, if you read the words of Jesus with the proper understanding, I - as Eckhart has described - find it all one truth, if we have the ability to discern that.

Just my personal opinion.

Deborah 

 

Mushin,

I am happy to engage with you in this discussion.  I had no idea it was so “old” but am happy to be here NOW, the only time I can be here, regardless of when these ideas first unfolded from the formless into your consciousness. 

I'm not sure what you would have them to “do”.  Is not the realm we are talking about a place of non-activity, from which the activity springs?  Just today, I was contemplating that what is new in this stage of human development, I believe, is that what Eckhart Tolle is attempting to do is to teach “the masses” how to experience that pure, virgin self - conscious awareness beyond thought, the “I” who can't stand living with that “self” any more, the soul it has also been called.  It is, the one that doesn't think in the ordinary sense of the word.

Now, it would appear to me - on reading these comments - that you begrudge these “stars” the comfort that their success brings to them.  It matters not what they preach or how they live really.  It is for each of us to discern for ourselves what is relevant to us at whatever stage of development we find our self in at this point.

Would like them better living ascetically and in poverty?  Do they have trouble “walking their own talk?”.  I would hope so.  If not, then they are not truly human but something other-worldly.  It is in their failures, in climbing up into an ivory tower and getting knocked down to earth or in the failures of their relationships or a loss of clout in the public eye or media, that we see whether they are able to apply their own lessons.  It is all play for Spirit regardless.

Those teach best who teach by the example of their own lives.  I have been listening to the Genpo Roshi session in the Mastering series you and I mention above.  I found his triangle analogy helpful to me at this stage in my own development -

“visualize a triangle where the base is horizontal and the third point is at the apex of this triangle.  The left corner of the triangle on the base is our everyday mind. This is the mind that we use to go to work in, within our relationships, to make decisions with and use for so many every day things in our life.”

“on the opposite side of the base of this triangle, the right hand corner, we have the mind that is present, not seeking anything, it is not wanting, it is not desiring. It's also called the mind of nirvana. It's at complete peace with all things and in that state of mind, there isn't anything to take care of.”
 
“There isn't anything to do. There are no problems. There are no fears because in this state of mind, there's no self and it is the self (the ego) that creates all of the problems.” 

Genpo says, “When I use that word (self or ego), I am talking about a limited self, a self that has a boundary around it.  In the non-ego or non-self place, there are no boundaries, there is no limit, there is no barrier. It's eternal, it's eternally present, it's infinite, it is the mind that is one with all things, all phenomena, all places, the great Earth, the cosmos, everything. There is no dualism in this state of mind. It is a non-dualistic state of mind and we can say it's our true state of mind.”
 

“Now there's nothing wrong with either of these if you think of them in a state of balance or harmony. When we move to the apex of the triangle, we both include the ego and the non-ego, or the self and the no-self. We include the dualistic mind, the non-dual. We include the mind that is always striving, always seeking, always wanting and desiring to move further, to advance, to get the things we need or want in our life, but we also include the state of being, the being of presence, which is eternally happy, satisfied, content. It is the mind of nirvana. It's at peace and it's lacking absolutely nothing.”
 

“We include these two states and yet we move beyond them, we transcend them. So, we don't exclude one over the other and we don't have a preference for one over the other. So sometimes we need to be seeking and striving, making goals, having and fulfilling our goals, and sometimes we can just sit and mediate and be in this presence. We can also act in this place and yet sometimes we need to have a preference, to make a choice and we spontaneously can do it, but when we're at the apex, it doesn't mean we're at just that third point or the apex point, we are including the entire triangle.”
 

I apologize for I feel I have gone on too long and it isn't my blog.  So, what I am wondering is - what would you have them do?  And I am wondering if your expectations regarding their human selves is not beyond human capability?

So, what I am trying to understand, I believe, is the jargon you use.  What is pluralistic spirituality?  Is it allowing that all is there for a reason?  And serves some purpose?  I believe that.  I don't believe there is one person or one belief that can encompass it all.

No, I don't believe the soul or spirit is unearthly, it is here, it is me and you and all of us combined and it is having great fun breaking itself into a million pieces while at the same time knowing it all as though it were one whole unbroken thing.

I see lots of collaboration and wonder why you don't.  Of course, that isn't really my business at all.  Mine is just to be happy believing in the wholeness I sense behind it all.  The emancipation is coming.  How long will it take to get here?  Sometimes, looking at the unconscious humanity around me, I think it will take a very long time, it will take those dying to this physical life and new ones being born who don't lose sight of it.

What is that same old ugly stuff anyway?  Hum… I need to contemplate that.  Certainly, in the unconsious lives of much of humanity, there is some stuff that I personally think ugly but it is not for me to judge.  There is some stuff in me that I think is pretty ugly.  I'm seeking a different perspective within myself capable of healing those things.

I accept that you have a sorely needed need to differentiate.  To what purpose?  Is it not a judgment?  That is okay too you know.  By judging, you seek to know your own heart and mind but you can never know the hearts and minds of those others, no matter how much you believe so, from what you see externally.

I'll look up your Wyatt Earp rants and the “in my wiki” link when I have some more time.  You know, I see a “participatry, collaborative spirituality whose goverance structure is a circle”.  Gosh, it was one of my big complaints when Gaia came along and tried to rate us.  So, I don't know why you are blinded that it is there, at least for some of us.  Perhaps, what you lament is that it isn't there for ALL of us.  It will come, it is coming, it is inevitable but not if limited to a human time frame.

Ah, here is a ? for you - Please answer - why it is that you think the spiritual stars can't get it together?  In answering it, you may find the solution to what you perceive as the problem.

I hope you understand that all of this is just intellectual playfulness.  It is my nature but it is good natured in its intent.  It is probing and thinking out loud really and you are my mirror today.  Thank you for reflecting myself back at me.

Deborah

 

I can envisage us all now sat in Satsang, the talking stick is resting and we can feel the eternity that surrounds our momentary thoughts and conversations.
Love to you all
M

 

Mushin,

I appreciate the time you have given me in sharing your thoughts.  I will admit that I stretch to comprehend you but that is my own shortcoming.  A mirror image may be “other” for all I know.  I don't think it is possible for me to be or know what is “right”, I doubt such a state exists.  I admit, I am lost at what it is that troubles you so, and am trying to comprehend that.  My dear friend, Martin, sits in with us.  His words tell me to rest awhile in it, so I will.  I'll read this over again, after a good nights sleep, and continue to mull it over, to try and stretch a bit.

There are all kinds of collective consciousness to consider and place oneself somewhere in regard to.  I'm not sure Life does make sense on the individual level, at least it feels that way at times to me, as though sense can not be made of it.  It just is and I try to make each moment the best I can, and fail more often that I wish, left without choice but to embrace those failures, as the dear lessons they are, never regreting the path as it is.

I fail to really get your point, try as I might, it remains abstract for me.  Perhaps, I'm not “inside” it enough to understand, perhaps your experience influences your perspective and judgment regarding it.  I'll give it time to unfold for me.  Maybe a year from now, I'll find myself back here again and will be able to say - ah, now it does make a kind of sense for me.

The one concept that I do “get”, and which has moved into my heart, is the image of the other as honored guest in my life.  I thank you for that gift.  I've enjoyed my time here …

Deborah

 

Mushin, no it wouldn't surprise me to see that “spiritual stars” are what people think of as “normal” human beings; because I know what you are saying is completely true. At first, it would shock me; and perhaps I went through the process of –“how come they are not better at relationships/ seeing the essence of those around them…”and so on.

And then I came to believe that they can do what they do; only by staying completely human of sometimes a lower order of behavior than ones who may attend their talks. Have you worked with others of lower vibration? You either fall ill or raise your vibration so high, that it begins to clear theirs, they become more agitated, and some more calm. There is a lot of movement and change; and sometimes it seems to go in directions you did not anticipate. Within this maelstrom, you grow silent. It is not possible to transform people around you, wihtout raising at the highest level that you can vibrate. Sometimes, while doing this, you move so far beyond them, that they are left bereft.

Whereas these teachers continuously stay at a certain doorway, seeing people enter and leave; always at the same level. Buddhists call them bodhisattvas, and pershaps that is what they are; willing to delay their own final emancipation for that of humanity.

I feel that is the only way they can do what they do. The closer you come to that state of oneness, the more silent you are…and yet people can sense you; and feel it is their own heart speaking. That is how the ones who influence the world, the “ONEs” without the ego mind, can influence and not be known. 

I know I have not intellectually discussed what you were discussing. But this is what flowed from what I read today, of yours and Deb's conversation too….And something else, before I had read what you wrote to me, and I invite your presence there, if you are moved to do so: [it mentions your blog too] Can we be separate in oneness?

 

Beautiful Mushin,

That's how I've been holding it too.

I wonder this as a scenrio …

We're all the apprentice in something, we're all the master in something else, like the most learned man in the world finding himself in the Kalahari bush, here to a Kalahari bushman the learned man is but a child. He may equally find himself in a tower block in Glasgow having to survive on social benefits, to the practiced Mother with babe in arms the learned man is once more but a child.

Thus, in we-fullness to reach true presence is to appreciate our own child like innocence in the world and in this innocence of not-knowing we may truly experience the rich, unique beauty of one another.

I imagine us clearly in we-fullness learning to love our authenticity

:-)

Martin

 

Mushin,

Your “simplified” explanation was helpful to me.  I understand it completely and now understand you are speaking of a particular form - organized spirituality - when you lamented the impossibility of “real collaboration”, whatever it is you think they should be doing (which I'm still not very clear about) .  I'm a really independent practitioner of whatever it is I do.  No definition possible except in my heart.  So, all of this is difficult for me because I'm not plugged in, really.

However, happily I can say that I do agree with all of your “basic” premises as they match my own “current” understanding, whatever that is.  (Truth “feels” good.  So, it is a good feeling to see we are not so far apart internally, as we might seem when expressed in language - including [4] where I indicate that I doubt sense can be made, except on a personal level, which is what I think you are implying).

Basic Premises -
[1] The universe does not have a center
[2] There is no beginning (Big Bang)
[3] The universe does not have a goal (that we could possibly know about)
[4] The universe does not make sense (*** but I'm not sure we do either ***)
[5] Spirit and matter are two (of an unknown number of) ways of interacting
[6] Gurus, masters, enlightened beings, etc. are not authorities by reaching the level or state they're on/in but by the grace of us (you and me) bestowing authority and trust upon them.
[7] Consciousness and unconsciousness relate to each other like a tree's crown and roots (connected by the trunk)

I try not to judge whether or not we can have “the kind of change (who? or what?) needs on a world scale”.  How can I even hope to define what is needed?  It is so huge of a question to ponder.  I don't believe it is the world that needs changing, personally.  The world or Gaia will be just fine. 

The real question is whether humanity will survive (I think at least a few will), how big the die-off might be and how it will occur, when the peak of the worst will be or -

That it is going to balance itself out and we will be surprised at the peace, harmony, cooperation and good lives we shall have (that last one is a “hoping for the best”, while not denying the likelihood that things will turn bad for humanity, eventually).  How can I as one human being expect to know what really is needed?  How? 

I can only live the best life I know of and try not to add too much to any problems.  Nothing more can I do, really.

Who judges what is equal and unique in these individuals who will make up the “circle” or is this the sum total of all of humanity?  Otherwise, it isn't inclusive, if anyone is excluded and we are back to the structure you seem not to like very well.  Who judges this?, by what criteria?

Consentual living allows the basic right of individual unfoldment to each individual.  It is an idea I resonate with.  Being in the Presence is the most hopeful path I see open to humanity that might be quick and cause massive change, yet we must also honor the needs of earthly living or we don't even need to be here on earth, and we are here at the moment at least. 

Ah, imperfection, who knows? what wonders the All that Is has been able to work through such channels?  The conscious (or unconscious) allowing of what is by non-resistance to what seems to be less than perfect.

So, thanks to my own need to understand, and your effort to explain yourself, your ideas are clearer to me this evening.  I am glad I have continued to check in here.

Deborah

 

Mushin,

It is nice to come full circle, if you will, and find we are not far apart at all.  Oh, yes, I do understand now your circles.  It makes total sense - I choose which circles to sit down in and participate - oh, yes, I do that already, I see.

I am a bit of a Taoist.  Have not found any conflict yet but it could happen.  I like the solitary, individualistic path but I think Martin would tell you that it is not without caring for others as well and I have pulled myself out of some circles because I did not resonate well there.  The pods/groups here at Gaia can be circles.  I do “feel” people I know only here online.  I can sense them before I know they are thinking of me.  It is a different kind of energy, more in the mind and not as physical in its sensation.

One can't include all people in reality, except in very general terms as in well wishing and hopefulness.  Part of being here in the earthly life is to discern; as you so well state.

I am glad I got this opportunity to get to know you better.  Sandra made me aware of you long ago (in the sense of Zaadz) but I have to admit, as I have experienced here in this blog, I had difficulty reaching understanding of your thoughts.  It is easier now.

Deborah